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  • Oct. 23, 1869
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The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine, Oct. 23, 1869: Page 10

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    Article MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. ← Page 2 of 3 →
Page 10

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Masonic Notes And Queries.

TRADESMEN IN LODGES . The remarks of Bro . J . A . H ., at page 30 S , are not to the purpose . —W . P . B . THE ANTIQUITY OP PEEEMASONEY ( PAGE 30 S ) AND ITS EVIDENCES .

Are we always to hear about and never to see these precious " evidences " of the antiquity of speculative Masonry before 1717 ? Surely , after so much tallc about them for years past they should now be forthcoming immediatel y , unless , indeed , as I suppose , they are non est . If they cannot be caught and handled , I greatly fear that thev are mere will-o ' -the-wisps . — W . P . B .

LOOSENESS AS TO DATES . I have written privately to Bro . Buchan to explain how the errors he points out arose , and I trust the explanation will be satisfactory to him . —J . A . H .

DUEGH EECOEDS . The interesting transcript by Bro . Buchan of the ancient rules and customs of the " Curia quatuor Burgorum , " suggests many considerations to Masonic students . These ancient laws and regulations , though known to some few amongst us , have not been

generally accessible , and both Mr . Cosmo Turner and Bro . Buchan have conferred a great benefit on all students by publishing and calling attention to them . And the more such genuine documents are carefully collected and brought forward , the better chance we shall have of arranging and realizing the true history

of Freemasonry . But I confess that I draw an exactly opposite conclusion to Bro . Buchan from the rules on which he comments in the Magazine . They seem to me unmistakeably to point ' out the true connexion of the Kni ghts Templar with the operative guilds . That such a connexion did really exist I have

ever maintained ; and the more I have studied the question the more I have become convinced of it . But what that connexion was , what its ori gin , what its practical bearing , has ever remained a question very difficult of satisfactory solution ; and the difficulty has been increased by the idle fables of the hih

g grades and the untenable claims put forward by the advocates of the Masonic Knights Templar . But still that in some way or other the real Kni ghts Templar used , adapted / and developed , the forms and usages of the operative Freemasons , I have for one never doubted .

The first question that arises upon Bro . Buchan ' s communication is , what guild is meant by "the gild ? " Is it " the gild " operative Masons , or any other gild ? If it be the gild of operative Masons , I for one should have no doubt what the regulation meant . It would incontestably prove to my mind that our old Masonic tradition is the true onethat

, the Knights Templar were patrons of Freemasonry . They found a secret operative order existing , and they took it under their patronage , became by degrees affiliated to it , making its secret organization and mysterious traditions subserve their own purposes . There can be little doubt that the " secreta receptio "

among the Templars was taken from a Masonic pattern . The regulation itself demonstrates the jealousy of the guilds lest the Templars , presuming on being partially affiliated , should seek to appropriate the guild privileges , and it has always been

asserted that the Templars did build their own preceptories and churches with operative Masons attached as serving brethren to the Order . I do not understand what Bro . Buchan means by a "liberty to trade , " as sought by the Templars , but I quite understand the guilds seeking to limit their privileges to Templars actually admited members of

the guild . In process of time , no doubt , the Templars dispensed with guild membership , having developed p secret organization and form of recognition of their own . I have assumed so far that " the gild " alluded to is really tho g ild of operative Masons , and I shall await Bro . Buchan's reply to my question before continuing my remarks on this interesting subject . —A MASONIC STUDENT .

BEO . HUGHAN ( pp . 148 & 2 SS ) . Page 148 . Page 288 . "The crafts were pro- " The absurd notion vided for from the 15 th that there was no speculacentury and afterwards , tive Masonry before 1717 . " without any special

distinctions for Masons . Page 289 . 'Wriehtes and mai- "Masonry was pracsonea' were often classed tised as a secret society , together , and certainly and on a different basis to there was notldnq special any other trade incorpoin the latter . We read rations or guilds . "

of the wardens and dea- , knes of crafts , but never as applied exclusively to Masonry . Why ? Surely because that as a body it contained nothing requiring different legislation to the others . " Will Bro Hughan explain the above ?—POINTED .

THE H . AUGHPOOT LODGE BEPOBE 1717 . It appears to me that the Haughfoot Lodge was merely a friendly and convivial society . They would have been poor speculative Masons to have no Master degree . Where was their system of threes ? Their three degrees , or their youthmanhoodage ; or

, , birth , life , and death ? All their speculative Masonry —if you could really give it the name—consisted , it would seem , merely of a bit of " apron-washing , " with its accompanying word , grip , and sign , just as the operative smiths or cordiners , & c , did . —W . P . B .

TOU 1 MIN SMITH ' S ENGLISH GILDS ( p . 308 ) . Is it not rather suggestive if the " Masons figure but little in the book , " more especially as " one special topic of his is the relationship of guilds as friendly societies ? " It strikes me that Mr . Smith ' s work will support my views . Of course the Masons

of the 15 th and 16 th centuries " figured but little . " The pretensions of the speculative Masons have all sprung up since last century began ; their ideas tooh , hence their spread . —W . P . BUCHAN . DEO . TAEKEE AND OLD PEEEMASONEY ( p . 303 ) . Bro . Yarker writes an interesting article upon an

old story ; but , after all , forgets to give any proofs . He has plenty of suggestions , but no real facts anent the existence of the M . M .- degree or speculative Masonry before 1717 . His imaginary Roslyn anchor has been already shown up at page 271 . —W . P . B .

“The Freemasons' Monthly Magazine: 1869-10-23, Page 10” Masonic Periodicals Online, Library and Museum of Freemasonry, 11 July 2025, django:8000/periodicals/mmr/issues/mmr_23101869/page/10/.
  • List
  • Grid
Title Category Page
Untitled Article 1
FREEMASONRY—PAST AND PRESENT. Article 1
AN INITIATION IN PARIS. Article 2
OLD FREEMASONRY BEFORE GRAND LODGE. Article 3
MASONIC DISCIPLINE AND THE RITUAL.—XXII. Article 5
LODGE MINUTES, ETC.—No. 8. Article 6
HISTORY OF VOTING BY BALLOT. Article 7
MASONIC NOTES AND QUERIES. Article 9
CORRESPONDENCE. Article 11
MASONIC SERMON. Article 11
ARCHIVES OF THE GRAND LODGE OF HOLLAND. Article 11
Untitled Article 12
MASONIC MEMS. Article 12
ROYAL MASONIC INSTITUTION FOR BOYS. Article 12
METROPOLITAN. Article 12
PROVINCIAL. Article 15
CHANNEL ISLANDS. Article 17
SCOTLAND. Article 17
IRELAND. Article 17
ROYAL ARCH. Article 17
MARK MASONRY. Article 18
REVIEWS. Article 18
PRESENTATION TO BRO. COLLEY, HOUSE SURGEON OF THE YARMOUTH HOSPITAL. Article 19
LIST OF LODGE, &c., MEETINGS FOR WEEK ENDING 30TH OCTOBER, 1869. Article 20
TO CORRESPONDENTS. Article 20
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Masonic Notes And Queries.

TRADESMEN IN LODGES . The remarks of Bro . J . A . H ., at page 30 S , are not to the purpose . —W . P . B . THE ANTIQUITY OP PEEEMASONEY ( PAGE 30 S ) AND ITS EVIDENCES .

Are we always to hear about and never to see these precious " evidences " of the antiquity of speculative Masonry before 1717 ? Surely , after so much tallc about them for years past they should now be forthcoming immediatel y , unless , indeed , as I suppose , they are non est . If they cannot be caught and handled , I greatly fear that thev are mere will-o ' -the-wisps . — W . P . B .

LOOSENESS AS TO DATES . I have written privately to Bro . Buchan to explain how the errors he points out arose , and I trust the explanation will be satisfactory to him . —J . A . H .

DUEGH EECOEDS . The interesting transcript by Bro . Buchan of the ancient rules and customs of the " Curia quatuor Burgorum , " suggests many considerations to Masonic students . These ancient laws and regulations , though known to some few amongst us , have not been

generally accessible , and both Mr . Cosmo Turner and Bro . Buchan have conferred a great benefit on all students by publishing and calling attention to them . And the more such genuine documents are carefully collected and brought forward , the better chance we shall have of arranging and realizing the true history

of Freemasonry . But I confess that I draw an exactly opposite conclusion to Bro . Buchan from the rules on which he comments in the Magazine . They seem to me unmistakeably to point ' out the true connexion of the Kni ghts Templar with the operative guilds . That such a connexion did really exist I have

ever maintained ; and the more I have studied the question the more I have become convinced of it . But what that connexion was , what its ori gin , what its practical bearing , has ever remained a question very difficult of satisfactory solution ; and the difficulty has been increased by the idle fables of the hih

g grades and the untenable claims put forward by the advocates of the Masonic Knights Templar . But still that in some way or other the real Kni ghts Templar used , adapted / and developed , the forms and usages of the operative Freemasons , I have for one never doubted .

The first question that arises upon Bro . Buchan ' s communication is , what guild is meant by "the gild ? " Is it " the gild " operative Masons , or any other gild ? If it be the gild of operative Masons , I for one should have no doubt what the regulation meant . It would incontestably prove to my mind that our old Masonic tradition is the true onethat

, the Knights Templar were patrons of Freemasonry . They found a secret operative order existing , and they took it under their patronage , became by degrees affiliated to it , making its secret organization and mysterious traditions subserve their own purposes . There can be little doubt that the " secreta receptio "

among the Templars was taken from a Masonic pattern . The regulation itself demonstrates the jealousy of the guilds lest the Templars , presuming on being partially affiliated , should seek to appropriate the guild privileges , and it has always been

asserted that the Templars did build their own preceptories and churches with operative Masons attached as serving brethren to the Order . I do not understand what Bro . Buchan means by a "liberty to trade , " as sought by the Templars , but I quite understand the guilds seeking to limit their privileges to Templars actually admited members of

the guild . In process of time , no doubt , the Templars dispensed with guild membership , having developed p secret organization and form of recognition of their own . I have assumed so far that " the gild " alluded to is really tho g ild of operative Masons , and I shall await Bro . Buchan's reply to my question before continuing my remarks on this interesting subject . —A MASONIC STUDENT .

BEO . HUGHAN ( pp . 148 & 2 SS ) . Page 148 . Page 288 . "The crafts were pro- " The absurd notion vided for from the 15 th that there was no speculacentury and afterwards , tive Masonry before 1717 . " without any special

distinctions for Masons . Page 289 . 'Wriehtes and mai- "Masonry was pracsonea' were often classed tised as a secret society , together , and certainly and on a different basis to there was notldnq special any other trade incorpoin the latter . We read rations or guilds . "

of the wardens and dea- , knes of crafts , but never as applied exclusively to Masonry . Why ? Surely because that as a body it contained nothing requiring different legislation to the others . " Will Bro Hughan explain the above ?—POINTED .

THE H . AUGHPOOT LODGE BEPOBE 1717 . It appears to me that the Haughfoot Lodge was merely a friendly and convivial society . They would have been poor speculative Masons to have no Master degree . Where was their system of threes ? Their three degrees , or their youthmanhoodage ; or

, , birth , life , and death ? All their speculative Masonry —if you could really give it the name—consisted , it would seem , merely of a bit of " apron-washing , " with its accompanying word , grip , and sign , just as the operative smiths or cordiners , & c , did . —W . P . B .

TOU 1 MIN SMITH ' S ENGLISH GILDS ( p . 308 ) . Is it not rather suggestive if the " Masons figure but little in the book , " more especially as " one special topic of his is the relationship of guilds as friendly societies ? " It strikes me that Mr . Smith ' s work will support my views . Of course the Masons

of the 15 th and 16 th centuries " figured but little . " The pretensions of the speculative Masons have all sprung up since last century began ; their ideas tooh , hence their spread . —W . P . BUCHAN . DEO . TAEKEE AND OLD PEEEMASONEY ( p . 303 ) . Bro . Yarker writes an interesting article upon an

old story ; but , after all , forgets to give any proofs . He has plenty of suggestions , but no real facts anent the existence of the M . M .- degree or speculative Masonry before 1717 . His imaginary Roslyn anchor has been already shown up at page 271 . —W . P . B .

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